Advanced Corners -- using geometry

[red84vette]

[MikeM3Allen]

Mike,

  Very well explained....and concur with your assesment regarding PAX as an indicator of equality. Additionally, I for one appreciate all the time and effort you put into this and suggest that we host a course design school and you be the instructor.  I can provide the facility.  I will put it up for vote at the next meeting.  Thanks again.

[red84vette]

Thanks, Mike
What I've done to promote SASCA's level of expertise is to follow-up Roger Johnson's course with some 'placement practicalities'  -- where Roger does a great job with concepts and general design, I have spent time on 'putting cones on the pavement' -- nowhere else can you find such detail, calculations and presentation --which comes in handy on tighter courses, of which I'll bet there are a few.  I'll be happy to teach a course.

[GernoR]

Define 'large car' for me, please.

Gerno

[Richard Watson]

For auto-x large car = Impala SS - I will get you some accurate dimensions when I get to work.

For driving down little tiny San Antonio freeways large car = Anything built on the ford F series or GM C,K series truck platforms.

Richard

[texaSS]

Gerno - "Small Car" anything smaller than my car. (OK, maybe a station wagen might be "Large") Anyway, I have to figure out some way to design a course that I can beat you on. If there is such a thing. []
Mike is right though, a course that looks open on paper may be really tight when you are driving it. Lots to learn on this course design stuff.

[GernoR]

Mike, should be easy to design a course like that - just draw a straight line, make it 1/4 mile long and have timing lights at each end. No problem! Though I don't think it's called AutoX anymore.

Gerno

[texaSS]

Hmmmmm.....there's an idea[:-idea]. Maybe that would make up for the December course. What do you think Mike?[:-eyebrows]

[MikeM3Allen]

quote:Originally posted by GernoR

Mike, should be easy to design a course like that - just draw a straight line, make it 1/4 mile long and have timing lights at each end. No problem! Though I don't think it's called AutoX anymore.

Gerno

 Actually it's call ProSolo....oh wait... there are a few curves thrown in and it is two cars going on "mirrored" courses...never mind.
  So in the discussion of small versus large is it based on weight or size.  Although the M3 is small in stature...the little SOB weighs alot.

[Richard Watson]

Impala SS

Length = 17.8 feet

Width = 6.5 feet

Wheelbase = 9.7 feet

Weight = 4,218 pounds

Gerno's Passat

Length = 15.4 feet

Width = 5.7 feet

Wheelbase = 8.9 feet

Weight = 3,322 pounds

[GernoR]

Mike (red84vette), while I do agree the the course was too #@$*& tight, I don't think that the 'unbalanced' PAX results you portrayed tell the whole picture.   If an M3 is considered a large car than a  Passat  Wagon  falls in the same  category (9th place),   the  other drivers you mentioned did not participate. Also, Mike(M3)Allen was running on worn out tires, which would explain his lower placing, or did he leave his driving skills at home that day[]
The course was too tight - no argument from me about that - but when making deductions about the course design by using the PAX results, ALL the results need to be looked at.
That being said, I'd much rather run one of the Mike(red84vette) courses than that slow thing we designed. And to think we designed it with an Impala SS as a guideline [:-banghead]. Oh well, we'll try again one of these days.

Ok, that's enough of ruining your course design thread. But I do have questions on how to balance a course design for large and small cars - what is 'large' and 'small' based on? - Wheelbase, weight, horsepower, turning radius, width, ...? I believe that all those constants define the ability of the car and how it performs at any given course.

Gerno

[red84vette]

Roger Johnson uses a Camaro and a Nissan Sentra to distinguish between larger and smaller cars.   The concept of a disparity between cars is why SCCA and SASCA runs in classes, and why Roger Johnson puts on a Course Design Skool(sic).

While the Volkswagen is perceptually a large car, it ran in a "G" class -- the same as the Acura Integra and The GTI. [:-boggled]

Mike's BMW is classed ASP.  

I equate "larger" with better HP and better acceleration, and I equate "smaller" with better handling with poor acceleration.  

Make a corner that a smaller car can carry speed into while a larger car can accelerate out of and you will be very popular.  Here's the easiest example of how to design a course (and the basis of some of my animations):  Take Ricky Crow and Day Goree, design a course for each of their cars and you will never go wrong. [:-eyebrows]  In the Course design Section are some examples and illustrations about balancing maneuvers.  See Ricky and Day go go go [:-hspin]

My first course was just as tight in a few points because of how hard it is to move from a concept to a set of cones on the pavement.

As far as PAX Indexing goes, SASCA reviews the information from http://www.autox4u.com/pax.htm to calculate their indexes.  The author of the page has also written an article defining PAX indexes, and based on the article I stand by my observations.  To discount his commentary would be to discount the very indexes we run. [:-glasses]

Last November a Z06 placed 6th overall.
Last October a BMW M3 placed 5th (a Z28 placed 6th, followed by a RX-7 and an Impala)
Last September a Corvette placed 4th followed by a BMW M3.
Last August Corvettes took 1st and 2nd and a BMW M3 placed 5th
Last July 20 a BMW M3 placed 5th (3 different BMW M3's placed in the top 15)
Last July 7th a BMW M3 placed 3rd and a Supra placed 7th.
Last June a Corvette placed 1st (4 Corvettes total in the top 12)
Last May a Corvette placed 1st (Corvette 5th, M3 6th)
Last April A BMW M3 placed 1st (and Adam took 15th in his K-car from Hell).
Last January, 2 Z06's and a M3 placed in the top 15 at RCR.

I still think that PAX indexes and car distributions within those indexes are a real indicator for our course results.  You have a point since some of our regulars didn't compete in December, but overall, I'm sticking with my premise.

I expect to see Josh, Kevin and Ricky as well as Day, Lance and M3Mike in the upper portion of every autocross they run.

When you all plan to design another course, just expand on the design and make a few alterations to bring components within minimal specifications.