Submitting a course

[2000gst]

I have a course that I drew up a while back, and I was wondering how to go about submitting it? And if it gets selected for an event, that makes me the event master, right? How early would I need to be there for set up?

[AndyHollis]

quote:

I have a course that I drew up a while back, and I was wondering how to go about submitting it? And if it gets selected for an event, that makes me the event master, right? How early would I need to be there for set up? Originally posted by 2000gst - Dec 17 2005 :  12:17:30 AM

A couple of notes for would-be course designers for the Verizon lot:

1) Don't try to do too much.  Because of the poles and curbs, its hard to have a long course path and still be safely away from the obstacles.  Simpler is usually better in this case.

2) This lot has low grip, so speeds in turns are lower than other lots.  Try and keep the inside radius of turns above 100 ft, otherwise people are having to go to first gear a lot.

3) Again, due to the slick surface, slalom spacing needs to be no shorter than about 55 ft or it gets painful.  The ones on last Sunday's course that I did were 63 ft.

4) To get good course duration with decent speed, you'll need a course path that can come close to earlier parts of the course.  Doing so safely requires thinking hard about visuals.  Confusing courses are dangerous when multiple cars are out there at once.

5) Too many pointer and laydowns is just as confusing as too few, especially given #4.

HTH,

--Andy

PS: When you try and "do something no one's done before", there may be a reason they haven't.  Think about it.

[2000gst]

ok, I'll keep that in mind

[red84vette]

If you wish to submit a course, then apply to be the Eventmaster for an event.  This usually done in person at the club meetings.  Consult the club rules for what's needed.  

I would aks that once you are confirmed, that you post your map for safety and competitiveness review.

Plan to be early and plan for a lot of criticism no matter how hard you try.

Take a look at Roger Johnsons' materials at the Houston SCCA website for more direction (or misdirection in some cases).

Mike

[2000gst]

Here's the course I made. Tell me what yall think of it. I dont want to try for event master with a course that sucks. This being my first try at making a course, I'm looking mostly for feed back about the layout. You'll have to excuse the quality, I posted this from work and MSPaint had a field day with the origional drawing

[crazee240sx]

I dont know that the center of your cinnamon roll will fly too well. Gearing becomes a serious issue there. The box is nice. finish is nice. But work on the cinnamon roll.

Sorry, not trying to be a smart ass, its what it looks like.

[2000gst]

I dont think your being a smart ass at all. You gave feedback just as I requested. It does look kinda cinnamon roll though...maybe that's why I've been wanting one for the last few weeks?

You say gearing is an issue toward the center, so I should revamp the course and keep everything in the realm of 2nd?

[txagz28]

Don't forget there's a minimum distance the "lanes" have to be apart as a safety issue.  The end of the largest area of the cinnamon roll looks like it comes way too close to the inner circle of the cinnamon roll.

(Sorry, but cinnamon roll is a good description) []

[crazee240sx]

Take the innermost part out off the cinnamon roll (always the best part) and you'd might be better off. Perhaps add a kink in the small straight towards the finish, to keep finish speeds down. Gearing does become an issue. Try to keep cars in second gear.

[AndyHollis]

One here's my feedback.  

80% of the course is fine and "typical".  Good.

That said, IMHO, the rest is is one of the attempts to "try to do something that's never been done before".  The spiral in the middle is visually confusing (lots of off-courses), and is way tight.  There's a reason no one does things like this.

Secondly, the teardrop box at the top is excruciatingly tight.  Its basically a pin turn, but with restricted entry/exit.  It will be difficult for some cars to negotiate and impossible for others.

If you want to do a tear drop, make it big.  You have the whole top of the lot to use.  Make a big 100' radius sweeper between the poles and the top edge of the lot and put your crossover entry in/out of it.  Basically just blow the whole thing up about 10x.

Look at what I wrote earlier about inside radii of turns.  Verizon is slick.  You need relatively big radii to get decent flow.  

--Andy

[red84vette]

1. You apply to be the Eventmaster, then you concentrate on a course.  
2. Submit the course to the BOD or the rabble via the forum.  I review some and the Safety Chair may review as well, and everyone else will help.
3. Plan to be there before everyone else at dark-thirty, and plan to be the last person (at dark-thirty) to leave.
4. You will direct a crew of volunteers to set up cones.
5. You will find the Safety Chair and have them walk the course.
6. You will still need to set your car up, register and tech and all that other neat stuff.

Get a drawing prgram that creates circles.  If you dont have MSOffice, you can download OpenOffice from openoffice.org.  Use a visual clue (like 8 feet for a parking stall width) and then you can eyeball and "lay down" a circle.

Even though Andy's right about corner sizes for flow, I don't want us to make the "100-foot radius" a requirement.  Before Verizon we couldn't get a 100-foot straight out of some of our lots.  And we are always one stupid incident away from going back to that.  Currently the range per SCCA is 35 feet to about 200 feet and the larger you go, the closer to the definition of a straight you'll come close to meeting (which have different rules).

Although there are no *official* requirements about track separation (per SCCA), we have always requested that a course will support 2 more cars with a minimum separation 100-150 feet.  In a different sense, you can have a tight maneuver just as long as the other car on course isn't in jeopardy; and you get in and out of it while keeping the two-car-on-course guideline.

We shouldn't discourage new ideas.  You all remember how, once we figured out the details, we used "crossovers" at the Alamodome.  Or the re-introduction of long slaloms.  It was like discovering fire. Then at Verizon: long, high speed courses.  Wow.

One of the things that can ruin a car club is the reputation of doing the same thing over and over again.  I used to hear that about two autocross clubs over the years, one of them being SPOKES and the airstrip course.  Of course all of those people aren't with us now.

IMHO one of the things that has made SASCA a wild success at Verizon was for me to stay away with my complicated throw-spaghetti-on-the-wall courses.  Oh, but we had fun with few of them....

I'd submit that autocross courses can actually contain maneuvers that make you apply the brake and maybe downshift (as long as it isn't a forced 1st gear downshift).

I'd even submit that local courses should be way harder than SCCA Regionals or Nationals -- containing some practice pieces, but also some grit-your-teeth pieces -- so that you're better "tuned."

Now that you've started, by the time this comes to fruition, this may become a good addition to the "arsenal."

To not suck as bandwidth from this site, I moved all of the work I put together to http://mikes-autox-coursedesignschool.freeservers.com .  This could a good place to start thinking about designing -- and thanks, I need to make some edits to the home page.

Mike

[2000gst]

Ok, so the cinnamon roll needs to be changed, if not removed, and make the box up top a little bigger. I'm still gunna try to make the roll work, I just have to figure out how to do a decreasing radius curve that transitions into an increasing radius curve. How hard could it be? []

After I get it perfected, I'll turn the whole thing into a slalom.  > Boy, wouldnt that suck?

[red84vette]

Actually, it's all possible.

Just make sure that the radius (as indicated by the shade is large enough)



If I want to carry speed, I stay "outside;" and if I think I can grab some time with a tighter turn and exit, I can do it if I want.

As far as the cinnamon roll, which is a decreasing radius left-hand turn followed by and increasing radius right-hand turn, start with an area wa-aa-ay larger than 200 feet x 200 feet.



Add your decreasing and increasing maneuvers to scale.




Start adding the "path" -- this wide line is actually to scale of a car's width.



Okay, time to go into the decreasing bit....



Add the increasing turn-around....



Experiment with some cone placements......



And take a look at the 10,000 foot view.

.

Always remember that the cones are not to scale; in this drawing they may be ten feet tall and 8 feet wide.

We'd then formally review for safety, timing (ie how long does it take to get through this so I can send the next car), etc.

Do you guys want me to put a class together on how to use drawing software for course design?  I't be a part of my hosting part of the 24 Hours of Daytona.

Mike

[AndyHollis]

quote:

Actually, it's all possible. Just make sure that the radius (as indicated by the shade is large enough) If I want to carry speed, I stay "outside;" and if I think I can grab some time with a tighter turn and exit, I can do it if I want.

Mike,

This "solution" does not change the fact that its a pin turn.  The fastest line through such a maneuver is still the tight line, especially if the approach/exit is a teardrop.  Doesn't matter how far back the walls are.

If a teardrop is desired, I would recommend using a gate at either side of the box for entry/exit, instead of a single cone in the middle.  That way a driver is free to do whatever thye want inside the box, yet the minimum driveable radius is much more reasonable.

--Andy

[2000gst]

OK, I revamped the course a bit, scaled down the roll, but kept it as a decreasing-then-increasing radius turn. I increased the size of the box at the top, and added a slalom at the end to help keep ending speeds lower. Tell me what yall think.